Filing A Proof Of Claim

The Robie Family received their proof of claim form in the mail today as did everyone else on the 268 page creditor’s list, likely, unless you live far away or Walter hasn’t finished folding, stuffing and stamping.  We have never done this before, so if anyone could help guide the uninformed, we’d be appreciative.

A few questions and/or comments:

  1. In box number two, what is our basis for claim?
  2. In box number three, as far as we know, REL account numbers are not numerical or even alpha numerical. Are we to use the last four letters in our account number?
  3. Skip box number four entirely if your claim is unsecured (which it likely is).

Anything else?  Who has questions?  Who has answers?

Thanks all…


40 thoughts on “Filing A Proof Of Claim

  1. My name is on the list, but I didn’t get a Proof of Claim form. However, the basis for your claim is the promissory note isn’t it? Use your entire account number if you have one. Robert Brower can probably help more, but it is alot to ask of him to help the rest of us for no $$.

    • Be careful when you fill out that claim form. You have until 9/6/11 to get it filed. I know NOTHING about BK but I think ‘Secured Creditors’ receive preference so that while our notes may be ‘essentially’ unsecured because of WFF there is nontheless a UCC 1 filed naming the Collateral Agent for the benefit of all Noteholders. Don’t send that Claim Form in until you know what you’re doing. AND Mortgage Fund ’08 noteholders don’t have the WFF issue. I haven’t checked but there is probably a UCC-1 filed for the benefit of Mortgage Fund ’08 noteholders too. I am sure there are bankruptcy lawyers among the Noteholders – I know Elliot Abrams, for example, is a BK attorney.

  2. Questions…

    Who is sending out the Claim Form? How are we, the investors, assured of receiving same? Is there a contact person or ph # if not received?

    Is a separate form and filing required for REL and MF ’08?

    Is anyone seeking service from a BK attorney to ensure proper filing (contact name please)?



    • We don’t know much, Dave. A lot of info has been flying around, both here and on the old RE Loans Google Group. Everyone is trying to figure out what this means, where we stand and what to do. Ultimately, we all need to file claim forms, which we’ve linked to in an earlier posting, but as Dilly Darlin’ and others have suggested, we have until September to file this form, so we should take our time, learn as much as we can and make sure we file correctly to preserve our rights, standing and anything else that we don’t know about today. Would like to know if others agree and please, there are a ton of attorneys invested in these funds – that is a fact we know – please let us know your thoughts. We’re in this mess together and we’ll fare better if we work together.

      • It attending the June 6th Creditors/Debtors meeting necessary or of any value?

        The next event in this saga is the Filing of the proof of claim with deadline of Sept. 6th. Our position of claim or circumstances as REL investors is the same and hence we can share insights on how this form needs to be filled.

        Can someone who is either a BK attorney or someone who has consulted one, share if and how the claim should be filed.

      • A lot of information is shared on this blog – are we making progress towards the goal of recovering our lost investments?

        It would be good to hear from those who think they have made progress as it may provide cues for others to follow or pursue. Information is good, but how can we turn that into actionable knowledge?

        We don’t even seem to know whether the Walter BK filing has any implications for RE Loan investors. As RE Loan investors, does the Walter Ng BK filing have any implications on the investors? If we file a proof of claim with the Walter NG BK, is that appropriate or does it just play into the Ng’s plan to write us off?

        Is there an archive on this blog where we can access the original agreement and subsequent exchange agreement?(these may provide leads to confirming whether these were fraudulent and what rights we have). We may also need this if we are to file a proof of claim individually.

        If we keep digging information without making sense of it, the information only serves the visitors on this blog (which includes those trying to protect themselves from wrong doing).

        Should we end by saying that this does not constitute legal advice and we can continue to grope in the darkness of information?

        There are some BK attorney’s among us (obviously, I am not one). Can they contribute and throw some light? If someone is an attorney, they know how to share general information without imparting legal advice. Yes?

        So far, the Ngs and their chaperones are having us dance to their music. Should we continue to allow this? Our only advice to visiting members looking for info is to read through the site and look for information. Great initiative, but where do we go from here. We’re in year #3 of darkness. Let there be light.

        • You should probably contact Robert Brower personally and see whether he would represent you and at what $ because action is required – not just complaining. My guess – and it is only a guess – is that Mr. Brower probably knows a good deal about BK and might represent some or all of us – but certainly not without compensation.

  3. I am at a loss for words to describe my feelings about the whole fiasco. My ,so called, little amount is a whole lot to me. I worked hard, as we all have, to save and to make a good investments, which this was in the beginning, and now to have this happen, is a crying shame. I hope I can recover some thing out of this mess.

  4. Please keep us informed of up-dated comments. We are far from being able to pay a BK Attorney so would be pleased to get any pro bono advice.

    • On the noticing motion, it was interesting that Kaplan was all for using the FBI Victim Notification System instead of Walter having to pay for all the separate mailings. It seemed like an admission that the creditors are in fact crime victims, and certainly acknowledged the existence of the ongoing FBI probe.

      It miffed me that Walter (under direction or approval of counsel) would name 3000 or so creditors and then claim hardship in notifying them. Especially since the vast majority of the creditors are being named “just in case” the personal BK spills over into REL, RER, and MF 08.

      • I think the point Kaplan (Walter’s attorney) was trying to make was that the cost of mailing, postage etc. to creditors (3000 x 50 cents or whatever postage is these days) would not be a personal cost to Walter; it would, rather, be a cost of the debtor’s estate and the greater the costs to the debtor’s estate the less there is for creditors. The lease expensive way to get notice to all creditors is in the long term interest of the creditors. Mr. Brower might elaborate.

  5. I just discovered this website today and am learning more than I have learned from any of the other communications we have received from REL. We invested in REL just prior to their closing the doors to more investors. At the time I am sure they knew the writing was on the wall, but our dear friend still suggested the investment was safe. Oh how gullible we were.

    • I am not a direct investor but a dear family member is. I am now trying to sort out this mess. My family member was douped. She has now lost everything. I am outraged that they did this to her. She is in her early 80s and invested everything. They lied to her and to me.

      What are the actions you suggest taking at this point. I am assuming we will all be at the meeting in June?

      Did the story run on the news?

      • Dear Frustrated,

        I understand how you feel, the same thing happened to my brother.

        You can start by reading this blog and get familar with the issues and then contact the FBI. Contact
        information is on this blog.

  6. I had been an investor with Owen’s Mortgage Fund in Walnut Creek for many years. Some of the partners died, I was concerned about the stability of the company. I was told RE Loans was a better, safer company, I transferred most of my money to REL. That was a big mistake.

  7. As of 1pm today 44 creditor claims have been filed with the court for a total of $8,731,809.00

    Some people are attaching their REL or MF08 statements.

    Most people are filing claims as unsecured vs. secured. I don’t know if this matters but from what I understand the court is pretty liberal at allowing later amendments to claims or correctly re-categorizing them later.

  8. This is weak! Where are your claims forms.

    Are you still waiting for Walter,Kelly and
    Barney that everything will be ok?

    85 claim form for 3000 investors, weak!

    Claims Register Summary
    Case Name: Walter J Ng and Maribel Ng
    Case Number: 11-45175
    Chapter: 11
    Date Filed: 05/12/2011
    Total Number Of Claims: 85

    Total Amount Claimed Total Amount Allowed
    Unsecured $12265230.04
    Secured $2950594.15
    Priority $636288.18
    Unknown $2469600.97
    Total $18321713.34 $0.00

    • Calmi down, Equitatus. People have until September to file their Proof of Claim. Perhaps they want to be better informed before they file – like after they’ve read the Schedues Walter is required to file. There is no need to rush filing a Proof Claim ALTHOUGH IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSSARY THAT IT BE FILED BY THE CUT OFF DATE!!!!! But remember – that is SEPTEmBER!!!!!!!!!!!

      • So, it begs the question on how the Proof of Claim needs to be filed. The deadline is Sept. However, the deadline to file an objection to dischargeability of debts is looming (Aug).

        An yet, most people are focused on what is happening rather than doing their part on ensuring they enter themselves as creditors. If one doesn’t, even if something is due and paid out in the end, one gets nothing. Correct? Therefore, it might be in the investor’s interest in first entering their claim or other required action before they spend the time on unearthing the doings/undoings of the Ngs. The Ngs have done what they needed to and are now on their path to absolution. We, the investors are helping them.

        Hence, if there is collective knowledge and information on whether a dischargeability needs to filed and how, share it here. Same for Proof of Claim.

        Good effort of sharing information, but that’s all you may get at the end. The legal process needs to be followed to ensure you’re in the running to get, if anything.

        If the group includes only people who have succumbed to their destinies with little ability to act, keep on reading this for years, I am sure it will make for an interesting chapter.

        • I agree with you -TakeItBack – i am planning on retaining an attorney to aid me in filing what I need to file as well as making sure that I do everything I need to do.
          I keep reading the site and comments and finally realized that it was not doing me any good towards recovering anything, if possible.
          Do you or anyone who is reading this site have an attorney already or would you be interested in joining together with me and any others who are of like mind.
          We need to take action.

          • We have investors and readers of this blog who have filled the Proof of Claim. We have attorney investors who also read this blog and may have advice to impart on this matter.

            Advice on filling the form should not take much in legal fees. I would be willing to entertain the thought proposed by Kathryn (I suppose it would be for 2 groups of investors – RELLC and MF’08 unless the same agreements were in place for both -secured vs. unsecured).

            Better to spend a few $$ and put this behind us and then spend all the time tracking what happens to the Ngs.

  9. Hi,
    The deadline is just over a week away. I still need to send in my proof of claim. Can someone recommend an attorney who is familiar with this situation to help fill out the form? Some have made comments about grouping together with an attorney. If this has happened, can someone pass on the attorney they used?

    • Hi,
      Can anyone tell us how to fill out the proof of claim? I plan on faxing it before Sept. 6, if you could just tell me the Essential things that must be filled out that would be appreciated. I too would like to consult the attorney that everyone used for assistance in this. Thank you.

  10. This is mostly a self-help blog. I believe it’s only the ’08 fund investors who banded together for some collective legal representation. If you were in that fund, then maybe you could join up with their efforts.

    There is attorney Richard Brown who filed a class action regarding Walter discharging things through bankruptcy, but that’s a different matter and so far he’s been doing that pro bono. But you might inquire if he’s interested in being hired to consult on filling out the forms. The lawyer for the creditor’s committee said that many didn’t need to fill it out, but since hardly anyone here seems to trust her, I wouldn’t pass up the potential opportunity just on her advice.

    There has been a lot of discussion on this topic over the summer, different opinions offered, but no concrete answers that I’ve seen.

  11. How about those of us with multiple accounts?

    For example; an IRA account with RE Loans, a regular RE Loans account, a RE Reno account and a MF ’08 account?

    Do we need to file on for each account?

    And the REAL question . . . how about all of those investors who have no clue what’s going on? If they don’t file a claim are they just out of luck?

    I know that the BK is about Walter personally, but I’m afraid that as sneaky as that whole group is . . . !

  12. I think the most important thing about the claim process and claim form is to get it filed, period. I am not a bankruptcy attorney and it is shameful that so many bankruptcy attorneys are in this case, reading this blog and not giving any adivse whats so ever.

    From following this case it seems that there are different “classes” of creditors, for example it was mentioned in court last week there were “trade” creditors. Each is in a different postition in the hirarcy of creditors.

    It is my understanding that if you have a personal “gurantee” or personal promisory note from Walter Ng you are high up on the list of creditors. Therefore
    you should note that on your claim form and attach a copy of such a note or gurantee.
    Most of the investors are not in this catagory. They simply have a note from RE Loans or MF 08. It will be Walter Ng investors who will be close to the top of the list as they have such notes or gurantees. Robert Brower has explained elsewhere on this blog RE Reno and the personal gurantees offered by Walter and Barney.

    Shame on Tracy Green. She is supose to be the attorney for the “creditors” and she has offered no adivise on her gold plated web site, although she, Maggie and Gary Kaplan will be making recommendations to the Judge on what creditors qualify for compensation under the up comning “plan”.

    Although the claims form is important, (just to get it filed) I don’t think that most of the investors understood that it was more important to file an objection to discharge by August 5th. By not doing so, you may have lost your personal tort right of recovery against Walter forever. How simple it would have been for yyou to sit down a the kitchen table and write a letter, labeling it an objection to discharge telling Walter how badly this has hurt you. I don’t think you have to take this lying down. You do have 1st Amendment rights, use them.
    Write a letter to the editor of your local newspaper, ask why havn’t you covered this story? Same question to your elected representives.

    • I believe some of the reasons more people didn’t file a complaint by Aug 5th include:

      1) the messages on this blog and yours, explaining that it’s a complicated process which is best done by attorneys, because it needed to be in legal format on pleading paper, with points and references to support the claim. Many people cannot afford attorneys, and some of the seniors feel that they don’t want to spend their last dollars and last years of life in litigation. A lot of their pride and energy left with their money, and now they struggle and worry about whether they are going to have enough money to afford food and shelter for the rest of their life.

      2) Comments on the blogs pointed out that to file a complaint letter with the court is akin to asking for a trial, where one would later need to defend their request in a courtroom, which most people are not equipped to do pro per.

      3) Odds of recovery seem slim, because some long-time investors believe that Walter Ng, Kelly Ng, Barney Ng and Bruce Horwitz have had decades to put money away, where it may never be found. (How many millions of dollars did they take each year in fees, as personal income, yet Walter is now broke? Did he spend it all on the Beanie Baby fad? Either he’s a really bad money manager, or some funds were “misplaced”.)

      4) It’s been pointed out somewhere along the way that if one has committed acts of fraud, they would not qualify for discharge, so with many criminal investigations underway, some investors hope that those will catch up to the alleged perpetrators in time to disqualify any of them for bankruptcy protection. (I think there is a period of time after discharge where it can be reversed, if the fraud is uncovered later.)

      5) Although we didn’t know until the deadline, but attorney Richard Brown did file a class action suit, which if I understood the proceedings correctly last week, it will go first and Richard Brown does not want to put off having that heard.

    • On this point: “Shame on Tracy Green. She is supose to be the attorney for the “creditors” and she has offered no adivise on her gold plated web site, although she, Maggie and Gary Kaplan will be making recommendations to the Judge on what creditors qualify for compensation under the up comning “plan”. ”

      Tracy Green has told more than one investor, (as has been posted on these blogs,) that she only answers to and works for the creditors committee. (Although it’s money from all of us that will pay her.) One person posted here last week that Tracy told them there wasn’t a reason to file a claim form if they are an RE Loans investor, but (if I recall correctly,) said she couldn’t advise them since she’s not an attorney for them.

      About that creditor’s committee… are they supposed to communicate with the creditors? Because some of them do not answer email inquiries creditors have sent, leaving people to feel as though nobody is looking out for their interests. (Which is probably close to the truth.)

      Should those who cannot get a response from the creditor’s committee members be communicating that to the court? Because I fail to see how a committee of three people can be qualified to represent creditors who they refuse to communicate with. Are we all paying Tracy Green to just look out for the interests of the three “chosen ones” on the creditor’s committee?

  13. Does anyone have a contact number for an attorney that has helped fill out the forms? I’m reluctant to bring in someone at this stage that isn’t familiar with the case. Thank you very much for any information.

  14. I plan on calling the Court clerk tomorrow for filing instructions [no I do not expect legal advice]…..the important thing is to make the deadline and conform with the filing requirements……primarily the deadline.

  15. Good People,

    A lot of you have been calling and emailing me with questions on the claim form.

    First the web link on Ms. Green’s web site appears to be broken.

    Here is a link to a pdf fillable claim form:

    The instructions are on the back. They are a little confusing.

    Here are some sites that give a better explaination on how to fill it out.

    Once you have filled out the form, print it to pdf if you have that option and then save on your computer. Then print a hard copy and mail it to the court.

    See this web page for the court contact information.

    Again, I appreciate all the emails and calls but returning them is time consuming, and as I have said in court, I am not a lawyer who specializes in bankruptcy.

      • Mr. Brower: You comment responding to Mr. Brown’s post – was it supposed to be helpful or just a viscious, snide remark..

    • Dear Sir: Thank you for the fountain of knowledge and time. I am confused

      on page three (3) indicates that a creditor filing a proof of claim waives its right to a jury trial?

      What should a creditor do that HAS filed a suit or what about “the class” in the suit that has been filed. Should plaintiff’s/creditors file a proof of claim or not?

      Thank you for any further help.

      • Why Should I File a Proof of Claim?
        A proof of claim should be filed in order to assert and preserve a creditor’s right to share
        in a distribution of the assets of the bankruptcy estate. Note, however, that, by filing a proof of
        claim, a creditor submits itself to the bankruptcy court’s jurisdiction and waives its right to a jury
        trial. In re Ha-Lo Industries, 326 B.R. 116 (Bankr. N.D. Ill. 2005) (the filing of any claim
        against the estate makes any litigation against the claimant part of the claims allowance process,
        thereby subjecting the creditor to the bankruptcy court’s equitable powers and waiving its right
        to a jury trial). If that entity is a governmental unit, it has waived its right to assert a sovereign
        immunity defense as an objection to the claim. 11 U.S.C. § 106(b).


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